View Issue Details
|ID||Project||Category||View Status||Date Submitted||Last Update|
|0000727||OpenMPT||[All Projects] Feature Request||public||2015-11-21 06:35||2018-05-08 21:41|
|Product Version||OpenMPT 1.25.03.00 / libopenmpt 0.2-beta15 (upgrade first)|
|Target Version||Fixed in Version|
|Summary||0000727: Request: Piano Roll Editor|
I know it would be redundant, but I think it would be nice for a future release to have a piano roll editor tab to work from as well as the regular tracker screen. Sometimes, piano roll makes things a lot easier to work with than hex numbers. I got my start working with both types of trackers, and I most often used trackers like Modedit and Soundclub back in the day. It's a shame that there's no really no trackers that offer that choice of piano roll interface anymore. Adding a piano roll tab similar to what Modedit or Soundclub had as a choice for track editing would really make this tracker stand out from the competition and would also make it less intimidating in appearance to newbies.
|Tags||No tags attached.|
|Has the bug occurred in previous versions?|
|Tested code revision (in case you know it)|
Having something like this added to OpenMPT might help to make Tracker Modules a mainstream format again, due to Piano Roll UIs making OpenMPT more accessible to a wider user base.
I completely agree. Most computers are now running 64 bit OS's now and that means that we've lost the ability to run Soundclub. The only other tracker which has a piano roll editor that I know of is Renoise, but the implementation they went with of it feels clunky. Sound Club and Modedit did it best with simple clicking on the screen and stretching to add the notes which just snapped to the grid. Click on each note to edit the note parameters. Very simple and effective. And reading the roll from the left to right like you do in those programs is a LOT less clunky feeling than dealing with the noted dropping from top to bottom like in Renoise as well.
Adding a left to right scrolling piano roll would make a huge difference in attracting new potential content creators who would have originally have been intimidated by looking at streams of dropping hex numbers.
I agree with what you said about the hex numbers. There should be an option for using regular numbers (like in every other DAW I know)--I find hex very counter-intuitive and counter-productive.
Good God, the last thing I need OpenMPT to be is "popular" and "mainstream". I am doing this in my spare time and I don't want the mainstream mass to take over my spare time with questions and bug reports.
That is entirely subjective.
Every other DAW does not use pattern commands. Hex is used for convenience because you can fit values up to 255 into two letters instead of one. You migh have noticed that OpenMPT already uses decimal ("regular" as you call it) numbers in any other place, including places that also exist in non-tracker DAWs.
No matter how fancy a piano roll might be - it won't happen anytime soon.
I still think plain numbers are better. Besides, values could go all the way to 999 (which can be used in many places such as high tempo for more precision).
Which won't work with most of the existing commands anyway. And what's easier to memorize - "values F0 to FF are fine slides, values E0 to EF are extra-fine slides" or "values 240 to 255 are fine slides, values 224 to 239 are extra-fine slides"? Or "the first nibble sets the on-time of tremor, the second nibble sets the off-time" compared to "tremor parameter modulo 16 is on-time, tremor parameter divided by 16 and rounded down is off-time"? "SCx means note cut at tick x. SDx means note delay for x ticks", etc. See, many of these effect commands simply only work in hexadecimal. Certainly you could re-invent them all and come up with new command letters outside the alphabetical range (because 26 commands will no longer suffice because you will have to split up multi-commands like D, E, F, S, ...), but at that point you will just have to rewrite so much of OpenMPT itself that you could just as well create an entirely new tracker. Yes, there is a lot of legacy in OpenMPT, but it's not possible to "just" replace it with something different.
Doesn't matter if you're new or not, what matters is the mindset. However your comments sound like you're not even trying very hard to get into this mindset.
Ther are enough users who are still stuck with resolutions as tiny as 1024x600, and we will keep supporting them.
True. Some effects need hex as it stands, though you could (and probably should) just add separate parameters for those functions.
A piano roll editor would be great, but that's from the world of sequencing, where most of the sound generation was from MIDI instruments. And MIDI is simplistic enough that you could use blocks (dashes) to indicate the note-on and note-off times, and the length it would be playing.
I would much rather see a "waveform roll" editor, but then that's what a DAW does. And as primitive and logical as text editing is for music generation, it may be the only way to do what we do.
I cant imagine how a piano view should work in modplug?
The "Waveform Roll" Editor in the other hand sounds very interesting
So a user can place a note with an instrument that has a long attack phase or even begins with silence or uses offset effecs and then she/he can see where the offset starts or ends by looking at the waveform in the channel
Maybe have a look at VersaTracker which is incidentally one of the first Windows Trackers together with ModPlug, but it never left alpha stage, so it's mostly unusuable. But curiously it does have a piano roll editor. The biggest problem I still see is what to do with all the information that cannot be represented on the piano roll, such as effects.
Mostly piano rolls are rolling from left to right
What I'm proposing with the piano roll isn't to switch over the entire interface to piano roll. I enjoy the current way of doing things. What I would like, however would be the option to USE a piano roll when I want to for various tasks. There are certain tasks that piano rolls just make easier to visualize. Things like note length, and such. It's just another helpful tool. I pretty much grew up using mod trackers like "MODEDIT" which was entirely piano roll. You could look at the effects easily by hovering the cursor over the notes so that wasn't a problem for me.
I understand - this would be an extra tab, a "lightweight" note view, that purely shows note positions and lengths for the currently selected track (with maybe a track selector as a dropdown), and the ability to adjust the note position and length by dragging them with the mouse.
Then you switch back to the existing tabs to adjust effects etc.
But I understand the project is free and being done in free time, so Saga Musix would have to implement features how he sees fit, and maybe this is considered out of scope.
I'm no expert but the few songs I've made I got by no problem by playing live with my keyboard, then refining, rather than adding notes manually from the get go.
But I found this post because I was fiddling with another tracker (PxTone) and I was thinking a piano roll interface might help creatively.
But perhaps this can be achieved by using some other music software to draft up your melodies, chords etc. then export to MIDI, import that into OpenMPT and refine from there. Of course you can't go backwards but it would just be a way of mocking things up in a more visually musically friendly way, before getting down into the details.
Other points I just thought of:
As you can see from this discussion, noone has done that in the last three years (or last 14 years for that matter), and it's unlikely to happen unless a new full-time developer decides to join the team. This is all but a small modification that can be done in a week or even month, and requires a lot of work in the internals that few people are willing to do.
FMComposer being non-free would be new to me. It's released under the GPL.
Just let me state this once again: An accurate, always working piano roll editor is all but trivial to implement for legacy module formats (which FM Composer doesn't need to care about since it has its own format). You have to account for some many things such as pattern loops, pattern jumps, etc, and if you don't, the visual results will be inconsistent, possibly leading to a lot of confusion when trying to edit such a pattern. I'd rather have no piano roll than a buggy piano roll that doesn't cater for all those edge cases.
Yeah I understand it could be deceptively complex. Maybe it is out of scope after all then.
I actually wondered about doing it myself, but concluded;
|2015-11-21 06:35||Blacklight||New Issue|
|2015-11-30 20:58||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Tag Attached: accessibility|
|2015-11-30 20:58||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Tag Attached: editor|
|2015-11-30 20:58||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Tag Attached: gui|
|2015-11-30 20:58||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Tag Attached: piano roll|
|2015-11-30 20:58||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Tag Attached: ui|
|2015-11-30 20:58||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Tag Attached: user interface|
|2015-11-30 20:59||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Note Added: 0002196|
|2015-12-01 23:33||Amaroq_Dricaldari||Note Edited: 0002196||View Revisions|
|2015-12-06 02:17||Blacklight||Note Added: 0002200|
|2015-12-06 02:18||Blacklight||Note Edited: 0002200||View Revisions|
|2015-12-06 02:54||Ryan Albano||Note Added: 0002201|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Note Added: 0002202|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Tag Detached: accessibility|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Tag Detached: editor|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Tag Detached: gui|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Tag Detached: piano roll|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Tag Detached: ui|
|2015-12-06 20:40||Saga Musix||Tag Detached: user interface|
|2015-12-06 22:49||Ryan Albano||Note Added: 0002203|
|2015-12-06 23:06||Saga Musix||Note Added: 0002204|
|2015-12-08 03:21||Ryan Albano||Note Added: 0002210|
|2015-12-11 21:24||harbinger||Note Added: 0002218|
|2017-06-07 01:45||ZerroDeNull||Note Added: 0003050|
|2017-06-07 10:40||Saga Musix||Note Added: 0003054|
|2017-06-07 10:41||Saga Musix||Priority||low => none|
|2017-06-08 11:44||ZerroDeNull||Note Added: 0003059|
|2017-06-12 01:35||Blacklight||Note Added: 0003073|
|2018-05-08 21:04||Domarius||Note Added: 0003520|
|2018-05-08 21:17||Domarius||Note Added: 0003521|
|2018-05-08 21:22||Saga Musix||Note Added: 0003522|
|2018-05-08 21:23||Saga Musix||Note Edited: 0002204||View Revisions|
|2018-05-08 21:23||Saga Musix||Note Edited: 0002202||View Revisions|
|2018-05-08 21:41||Domarius||Note Added: 0003523|