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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0000727OpenMPT[All Projects] Feature Requestpublic2017-06-12 01:35
ReporterBlacklightAssigned To 
PrioritynoneSeverityfeatureReproducibilityN/A
Status newResolutionopen 
Platformx64OSWindowsOS Version7
Product VersionOpenMPT 1.25.03.00 / libopenmpt 0.2-beta15 (upgrade first) 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000727: Request: Piano Roll Editor
Description

I know it would be redundant, but I think it would be nice for a future release to have a piano roll editor tab to work from as well as the regular tracker screen. Sometimes, piano roll makes things a lot easier to work with than hex numbers. I got my start working with both types of trackers, and I most often used trackers like Modedit and Soundclub back in the day. It's a shame that there's no really no trackers that offer that choice of piano roll interface anymore. Adding a piano roll tab similar to what Modedit or Soundclub had as a choice for track editing would really make this tracker stand out from the competition and would also make it less intimidating in appearance to newbies.

TagsNo tags attached.
Has the bug occurred in previous versions?
Tested code revision (in case you know it)

Activities

Amaroq_Dricaldari

Amaroq_Dricaldari

2015-11-30 20:59

reporter   ~0002196

Last edited: 2015-12-01 23:33

View 2 revisions

Having something like this added to OpenMPT might help to make Tracker Modules a mainstream format again, due to Piano Roll UIs making OpenMPT more accessible to a wider user base.

Blacklight

Blacklight

2015-12-06 02:17

reporter   ~0002200

Last edited: 2015-12-06 02:18

View 2 revisions

I completely agree. Most computers are now running 64 bit OS's now and that means that we've lost the ability to run Soundclub. The only other tracker which has a piano roll editor that I know of is Renoise, but the implementation they went with of it feels clunky. Sound Club and Modedit did it best with simple clicking on the screen and stretching to add the notes which just snapped to the grid. Click on each note to edit the note parameters. Very simple and effective. And reading the roll from the left to right like you do in those programs is a LOT less clunky feeling than dealing with the noted dropping from top to bottom like in Renoise as well.

Adding a left to right scrolling piano roll would make a huge difference in attracting new potential content creators who would have originally have been intimidated by looking at streams of dropping hex numbers.

Ryan Albano

Ryan Albano

2015-12-06 02:54

reporter   ~0002201

I agree with what you said about the hex numbers. There should be an option for using regular numbers (like in every other DAW I know)--I find hex very counter-intuitive and counter-productive.

Saga Musix

Saga Musix

2015-12-06 20:40

administrator   ~0002202

might help to make Tracker Modules a mainstream format again

Good God, the last thing I need OpenMPT to be is "popular" and "mainstream". I am doing this in my spare time and I don't want the mainstream mass to take over my spare time with questions and bug reports.
Also, there is no "again", trackers were never mainstream to begin with.

And reading the roll from the left to right like you do in those programs is a LOT less clunky feeling than dealing with the noted dropping from top to bottom like in Renoise as well.

That is entirely subjective.

There should be an option for using regular numbers (like in every other DAW I know)

Every other DAW does not use pattern commands. Hex is used for convenience because you can fit values up to 255 into two letters instead of one. You migh have noticed that OpenMPT already uses decimal ("regular" as you call it) numbers in any other place, including places that also exist in non-tracker DAWs.

No matter how fancy a piano roll might be - it won't happen anytime soon.

Ryan Albano

Ryan Albano

2015-12-06 22:49

reporter   ~0002203

I still think plain numbers are better. Besides, values could go all the way to 999 (which can be used in many places such as high tempo for more precision).
The only thing convenient with hex is saving one tiny column of space. Other than that, I end up spending much more time writing out hex values and still mess them up, even after using MPT for years. I can imagine it's an even bigger problem for new users. If I have to use an extra column for digits, I don't mind. Display resolutions are pretty big now.
Anyway, my biggest concern is adding volume ramp-down control on instruments. I'd rather you do that first.

Saga Musix

Saga Musix

2015-12-06 23:06

administrator   ~0002204

Besides, values could go all the way to 999

Which won't work with most of the existing commands anyway. And what's easier to memorize - "values F0 to FF are fine slides, values E0 to EF are extra-fine slides" or "values 240 to 255 are fine slides, values 224 to 239 are extra-fine slides"? Or "the first nibble sets the on-time of tremor, the second nibble sets the off-time" compared to "tremor parameter modulo 16 is on-time, tremor parameter divided by 16 and rounded down is off-time"? "SCx means note cut at tick x. SDx means note delay for x ticks", etc. See, many of these effect commands simply only work in hexadecimal. Certainly you could re-invent them all and come up with new command letters outside the alphabetical range (because 26 commands will no longer suffice because you will have to split up multi-commands like D, E, F, S, ...), but at that point you will just have to rewrite so much of OpenMPT itself that you could just as well create an entirely new tracker. Yes, there is a lot of legacy in OpenMPT, but it's not possible to "just" replace it with something different.

I can imagine it's an even bigger problem for new users

Doesn't matter if you're new or not, what matters is the mindset. However your comments sound like you're not even trying very hard to get into this mindset.

If I have to use an extra column for digits, I don't mind. Display resolutions are pretty big now.

Ther are enough users who are still stuck with resolutions as tiny as 1024x600, and we will keep supporting them.

Ryan Albano

Ryan Albano

2015-12-08 03:21

reporter   ~0002210

True. Some effects need hex as it stands, though you could (and probably should) just add separate parameters for those functions.
In particular, I find the fine and extra-fine portamento in the same effect as the regular portamento a bad idea. When I use fine porta, I often need the full range like with normal porta. But because its not there, I have to end up using regular porta anyway and the 'tweak' ends up taking 2 rows!

harbinger

harbinger

2015-12-11 21:24

reporter   ~0002218

A piano roll editor would be great, but that's from the world of sequencing, where most of the sound generation was from MIDI instruments. And MIDI is simplistic enough that you could use blocks (dashes) to indicate the note-on and note-off times, and the length it would be playing.
But sound generation with samples is not so simplistic. There should be something more graphic that text editing for sure, but I don't know if a piano roll editor is what's called for, unless it were really souped up to show how to process the sample.
Just for one example, if you commanded a playback offset for the sample, the piano roll editor would not be able to show the playback offset; it would not indicate how the playback is -- well, played back. You would have to show for looping of different types, resampling commands, portamento, etc.
While I'm a big fan of the piano-roll editor, it would only be useful with external MIDI instruments and VSTi's. Which are strictly ADD-ONS to MPT's capabilities, not the main function. The whole point of trackers is sample control, and a piano roll editor would not be a big leap in track composition.

I would much rather see a "waveform roll" editor, but then that's what a DAW does. And as primitive and logical as text editing is for music generation, it may be the only way to do what we do.

ZerroDeNull

ZerroDeNull

2017-06-07 01:45

reporter   ~0003050

I cant imagine how a piano view should work in modplug?
from left to right? piano from up to down? Channel by channel or all at once?
maybe a simple solution would be to just use a pianoroll app, nowdays you can find them on google play for smartphones

The "Waveform Roll" Editor in the other hand sounds very interesting
i imagine the waveform of each channel displayed in the channel it self
maybe with some nice decent and customable 3d like in propellerheads recycle tool (or what ever is modern)

So a user can place a note with an instrument that has a long attack phase or even begins with silence or uses offset effecs and then she/he can see where the offset starts or ends by looking at the waveform in the channel
in the other hand it is questionable why we have ears?

Saga Musix

Saga Musix

2017-06-07 10:40

administrator   ~0003054

I cant imagine how a piano view should work in modplug?

Maybe have a look at VersaTracker which is incidentally one of the first Windows Trackers together with ModPlug, but it never left alpha stage, so it's mostly unusuable. But curiously it does have a piano roll editor. The biggest problem I still see is what to do with all the information that cannot be represented on the piano roll, such as effects.

ZerroDeNull

ZerroDeNull

2017-06-08 11:44

reporter   ~0003059

Mostly piano rolls are rolling from left to right
at the left side is mostly some kind of piano keys display
at the right the notes represented as some kind of blocks
in some sequencers the blocks are short or long as the note should be
if there are some blocks in the pianoroll representing some sampletriggerpoints, why not to write Instrument number, Volume command, and Effect command on each block in the pianoroll and there where the block ends optionaly a note off event.
maybe the whole thing is better representet as it is now without pianoroll.
I my self do not often use VST stuff but maybe with some plugins a pianoroll would make more sence than just for tracking
But how to put 333 VST Parameters into one Pianoroll?
In FL they have a Pianoroll, at the top is a dropdown where you can select Volume, Pan, Effect 1- XY, below the pianoroll is some kind of envelope
When you click a parameter in the upper dropdown box its parameter gets displayes in the envelope view below the pianoroll.
Maybe this is what FL users dream of?
I think it would be a bad idea any way.
ModPlug it self is a good teacher as it is now, and with a pianoroll and all fancy stuff it will may turn into an other mouse clicking adventure game... thats what i think.

Blacklight

Blacklight

2017-06-12 01:35

reporter   ~0003073

What I'm proposing with the piano roll isn't to switch over the entire interface to piano roll. I enjoy the current way of doing things. What I would like, however would be the option to USE a piano roll when I want to for various tasks. There are certain tasks that piano rolls just make easier to visualize. Things like note length, and such. It's just another helpful tool. I pretty much grew up using mod trackers like "MODEDIT" which was entirely piano roll. You could look at the effects easily by hovering the cursor over the notes so that wasn't a problem for me.
But replacing the current interface isn't what I'm proposing. I would like to be able to switch back and forth between the two variations for different types of editing.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2015-11-21 06:35 Blacklight New Issue
2015-11-30 20:58 Amaroq_Dricaldari Tag Attached: accessibility
2015-11-30 20:58 Amaroq_Dricaldari Tag Attached: editor
2015-11-30 20:58 Amaroq_Dricaldari Tag Attached: gui
2015-11-30 20:58 Amaroq_Dricaldari Tag Attached: piano roll
2015-11-30 20:58 Amaroq_Dricaldari Tag Attached: ui
2015-11-30 20:58 Amaroq_Dricaldari Tag Attached: user interface
2015-11-30 20:59 Amaroq_Dricaldari Note Added: 0002196
2015-12-01 23:33 Amaroq_Dricaldari Note Edited: 0002196 View Revisions
2015-12-06 02:17 Blacklight Note Added: 0002200
2015-12-06 02:18 Blacklight Note Edited: 0002200 View Revisions
2015-12-06 02:54 Ryan Albano Note Added: 0002201
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Note Added: 0002202
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Tag Detached: accessibility
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Tag Detached: editor
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Tag Detached: gui
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Tag Detached: piano roll
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Tag Detached: ui
2015-12-06 20:40 Saga Musix Tag Detached: user interface
2015-12-06 22:49 Ryan Albano Note Added: 0002203
2015-12-06 23:06 Saga Musix Note Added: 0002204
2015-12-08 03:21 Ryan Albano Note Added: 0002210
2015-12-11 21:24 harbinger Note Added: 0002218
2017-06-07 01:45 ZerroDeNull Note Added: 0003050
2017-06-07 10:40 Saga Musix Note Added: 0003054
2017-06-07 10:41 Saga Musix Priority low => none
2017-06-08 11:44 ZerroDeNull Note Added: 0003059
2017-06-12 01:35 Blacklight Note Added: 0003073